Kendra Cunov (EP002)

Michael Porcelli: Welcome to Relational Conversations, a podcast where we talk about relationships, communication, and the ways they're intertwined. I'm your host, Michael Porcelli. For this episode, I'm so glad to be joined by Kendra Cunov, a longtime friend and collaborator of mine. Whenever she and I connect, I figure I'm in for a discussion that could go just about anywhere, from deeply personal sharing to our perspectives on global, political, or spiritual themes. She and I don't always agree on everything, but how we navigate our disagreements is not only respectful, but mutually valuable and worthwhile. And I'm so glad to have her as a friend. Some years back, Kendra and I created a training called the Authentic Relating Comprehensive. This was for people who were looking to build and deepen their relational and communication skills. Here's a little bit more about Kendra's work. She works with men, women, and couples in the areas of embodiment, intimacy, communication, and authentic self-expression. She also works with organizations and leaders who know that embodied presence, truth, connection, and integrity are the ways to access true success in both business and in love. In our conversation today, like many others that we've shared, Kendra and I laugh as we geek out on many relational topics. I'm really pleased to welcome you to listen in on this conversation. Please enjoy.

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, this is Michael Porcelli, and I'm here with my good friend Kendra Cunov. Hey, Kendra.

Kendra Cunov:
Hey, hey. We just determined.

Michael Porcelli: We have known each other 14 years now. Kind of wild. Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
[LAUGHS]

Michael Porcelli: And we met through this workshop called the Authentic Man

Kendra Cunov:
[MUSIC ENDS]

Michael Porcelli: Program. And in the years since then, we've on and off been colleagues and facilitated together. We even created a training together. And whenever we talk, we love geeking out about relational dynamics and communication and the interplay between all of these things and stuff like that. At least that's one topic area that seems to be-- we can't avoid getting back into.

Kendra Cunov:
Absolutely.

Michael Porcelli: And since you're one of my favorite people to talk about these things with, I thought how awesome would it be to record us talking about those things and maybe let some people in on what conversations between you and me sound like? What do you think? Cool.

Kendra Cunov:
I mean, I often say it's both in that realm and then I often say that you're one of my

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. So-- oh, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
favorite people to disagree with. I think for those same reasons and some of it is, you know, the geeking out is often

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
in the realm of agreement.

Michael Porcelli: Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Although there is, you know, we kind of will tease things apart or say like, well, I kind of see it this way or it feels a little different this way or what about in this realm or something. But then there are places where it's just in life, you know, we sort of approach life

Michael Porcelli: Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
slightly differently. And I think that it's the bedrock of these kind of conversations and the coming back to them that has me say like, you're my favorite person to disagree with.

Michael Porcelli: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
[LAUGHS]

Michael Porcelli: I like that.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah. [BLANK_AUDIO]

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. It makes sense to me. There's something-- when I think of helping people out

Kendra Cunov:
[LAUGHS]

Michael Porcelli: with their communication, one of the polarities I like to pay attention to is both similarity and difference. And nobody is a perfect clone of another person. Even identical twins have differences. So there are differences. And it's like, well, how do you navigate this way

Kendra Cunov:
[BLANK_AUDIO]

Michael Porcelli: that relationships get in sync and resonating? Oh, we're agreeing, and it feels so good. Or hey, now we're disagreeing, and maybe it feels a little more intense or exciting. And in a way, I think that's a sign of a healthy relationship, a healthy connection, where people can move between similarity and difference with relative ease and skill. And that definitely is something that you and I-- you are also one of my favorite people to disagree with. Because we do have important differences, yet there is a way that, at the level of how we communicate with each other, that keeps our relationship strong and undergirds our conversations, whether we're really agreeing or disagreeing. [AUDIO OUT] Mm-hmm. Sure.

Kendra Cunov:
[BLANK_AUDIO]

Michael Porcelli: [LAUGHS] [AUDIO OUT] Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Totally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [AUDIO OUT] Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Totally. Totally. We did this training called the Authentic Relating Comprehensive together. And we presented these models, like polarity, like we just talked about-- similarity, difference. There's many polarities in relating. And I suppose, on the one hand, we're gesturing towards what healthy relating looks like in general, like at least being aware of these different dimensions, these different ranges, these different polarities, so that people can have choice. Because I think a lot of times, people don't even know what's on the menu or what's sort of available. They're just in a trance from their culture of origin or just emulating what parents or teachers taught them or media and whatever says. But then the reason why we lay out all these things is not to get like a cookie cutter mold of relating, like, aha. So now that you understand masculine and feminine polarity, then what you want to do is just figure out how to amplify that all the time or whatever. It's like, well, some people like that. Some people like less of that. But some people don't even know that there is a dial or a lever on that dimension. And so giving people the tools to kind of understand what is available gives them the opportunity to make choices around it for ultimately the goal of, like, hey, people want their relational world to be-- there is a little bit of a uniqueness to it or a very personal, intimate-- it's not a moral thing, really. Like, it's right or it's wrong. It's really custom.

Kendra Cunov:
Yes, I mean, it's funny that you brought this up too because I was

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
thinking about, in some ways, what I, one of the things that I actually think can be missing

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
from the world of authentic relating is more attention

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
on what each person wants. Or like specifically the ongoing layered practice of, but how do I actually want this to go?

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
Or what do I want in this conversation? What do I want in this relationship?

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
How do I want it to change? How have I changed? And it's a little bit what you're speaking to here, which is kind of like one

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
framework can just be traded for another. A certain overculture framework of just be nice could just be traded for just say everything all the time. Just share all your feelings. And so those are a little bit dramatic. But I think there can be that. And there's value to this giving specific formats for having conversations because it starts to expand. But it can become just another framework. And this ongoing, I don't even want to call it self-inquiry because it can get so navel-gazey. But this ongoing discovery of both what do I personally want? What do you personally want?

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
What does the relationship, like what's actually alive in the

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
relationship itself? And how are, like how's everybody enjoying it? You know?

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because I sometimes use this as an example. It seems like it used to happen a little more in the past, but we'd get together and you have a real spaciousness, you know, and you would listen and I could share things and I would like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then there'd be a point where you'd be like, awesome, it's really great to hear what's going on. I would like to talk now. And I was always, and the great thing about that was first of all, it always, like your being always felt very open in a way that I never, like I was just like, oh, I would love to hear you talk too, actually. So I never was like, oh no, I talk too much and blah, it was just like, oh yeah, I did a lot of talking. Michael would like to talk. I would like to hear him. But yeah, this way like how to bring in wider pieces. And so I think I was thinking of that in relation, you know, I mean, you might want to share right off the bat, but then also you just see I have a lot to share and it's not like, oh, I guess I will just postpone my desires or wait or somehow, you know, like, oh, well, can we fully do this thing that Kendra just has a lot to say? But then also it is true. And that also for the life to continue bubbling, Michael needs to talk too. [Laughter]

Michael Porcelli: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, totally.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Totally. Yeah, this kind of touches on, you know, I think

Kendra Cunov:
[Silence]

Michael Porcelli: another polarity. This is one of my favorite ways of talking about relational

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: dynamics is in terms of these polarities. And this is another one where it's like in a conversation, who's doing more of the talking? And it will feel a little bit weird if that's

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: super asymmetrical in a relationship, like all of the time. Oh, yeah, this is where I quietly listen and this person just goes and that's how I would just characterize the relationship and nobody really is kind of in touch with

Kendra Cunov:
[Silence]

Michael Porcelli: their desire for the opposite. Maybe it's like, sometimes I get tired. I love talking, but I get tired of hearing myself talk sometimes.

Kendra Cunov:
Yes. Or honestly, I've watched this happen and it may

Michael Porcelli: [LAUGHTER]

Kendra Cunov:
be slightly more of like a traditional male-female

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
dynamic, but sometimes I see the females in relationship keep talking, like hoping that he'll talk. It's almost like if I keep talking, he'll talk more. It is. I know if you

Michael Porcelli: Uh-huh, which is funny.

Kendra Cunov:
say it out loud, it's sort of like, well, then that obviously doesn't actually work.

Michael Porcelli: [AUDIO OUT]

Kendra Cunov:
But so it is, it's like how we put our attention on what is needed is complex. And sometimes it truly is inwardly my desire or like either checking verbally or with my own senses your need or desire. And sometimes it's just some broader awareness that includes both of us or the third body that we talk about, like the relationship itself. Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah, I mean, for me,

Kendra Cunov:
[Silence]

Michael Porcelli: this was kind of revelatory. I can't exactly pinpoint it in time, but in that you helped create this community training, authentic relating, and I kind of came in as like a newbie in 2008

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: and I remember different pieces kind of clicking in over time and one of the ones that really, when it came together, was kind of like a bit revelatory. It was like, can I like look at you, be with you, talk to you, listen to you, have a back and forth where my attention is not just like up in my head on what I'm going to say next or just over here on my side or way over there on you and totally losing connection with me, but can I be interacting with you while

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: I'm also putting some amount of attention, I suppose you could think about it as like non-verbals or just sort of like, how does Kendra seem like right now? Does it seem like she's experiencing from my point of view, like as she's listening to me or as she's talking, and then what is it like for me in my body,

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: in my feelings, in my sensations, like as Kendra

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: is talking or as I'm talking with Kendra, and to like, OK, well, can I sustain that expanded attention sphere like throughout a conversation

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: or at least be able to return to it fairly easily? And that was like I didn't realize I just did not even know how to do that

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: until I started doing it. And then it was like,

Kendra Cunov:
[Silence]

Michael Porcelli: oh, I'm now sensitive to myself

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: and the impact that I'm having and the impact they're having on me, all kind of simultaneously, like almost like a multiple

Kendra Cunov:
[Inaudible]

Michael Porcelli: channels, like on a sound mixer or something like all those things, all those volumes can be actually like, and I can hear them all at the same time. They're all coming through my, it really is an embodied experience.

Kendra Cunov:
It really is, I mean this is actually it's reminding me of something that I also think doesn't necessarily happen in like strictly authentic relating spaces. But it's interesting to hear you speak to

Michael Porcelli: Interesting.

Kendra Cunov:
that you actually did get it there. So what's

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
what I'm imagining about this is like it's possible. And it's a little like the way you

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
described it of that simply by putting ourselves in a space of something like lifting weights or like we just do the things over and over again and these other pieces can be learned without it

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
necessarily being the specific intention.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
But I do think of that actually as like what you said embodied and that it is related to our nervous system capacity. And that's the part I was thinking about. Like we don't necessarily, we might talk about the

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
nervous system because it's all the rage right now. But like what

Michael Porcelli: Sure.

Kendra Cunov:
actually what it means to both

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
self-regulate and co-regulate and like be able to regulate myself

Michael Porcelli: OK.

Kendra Cunov:
well in connection with you or part of what makes these, I would think about actually I can't remember now what I did. I did some sort of stupid thing and you were kind of upset about it. I mean this is so long ago. But you called me and first of all I mean you did bring it in a way where you were checking it out.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
You were like hey I saw this thing and seems like

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
dah dah dah dah dah. But also what was required was like something in me that neither immediately needed to defend against you or needed to collapse. Which again I think of actually I mean we've talked about right posture and collapse

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
but there is a sense that that's also a flexible nervous system. It's both strong and flexible in the way that it's like

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
oh I know I'm not dying right now just because someone's upset with me and I might have made a mistake. And that actually, this is

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
why it's a challenge. It's like in a way

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
that's not the explicit piece sometimes of when we're teaching in the relational realm or giving people things.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And it's a little chicken or an egg but I also there is a way that it's foundational.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And like oh we can't continue we can start and we can

Michael Porcelli: Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
practice and see if this gets built but there's like a certain plateau I think

Michael Porcelli: Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
will hit where we'll just be going through the motions right. Like people who do quote unquote do nonviolent communication but it's just they have all the right words. But actually there is like either a defense or a collapse right rather than like oh I can't actually be

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
open to you. I was open to that I had hurt you and that I might actually there might actually be a place for genuine apology

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
without that I am a bad person or I need to collapse in shame. And that's a

Michael Porcelli: Totally. I love this.

Kendra Cunov:
I don't know it's just kind of we may not go down that rabbit hole but it's like its own thing in relationality.

Michael Porcelli: I've, I've, um, I've, I've started to use another term

Kendra Cunov:
[silence]

Michael Porcelli: now, which I call it relational communication, which to me kind of captures both sides of this. Like, I'm, I'm captures both sides of this. Like a lot of the stuff, especially like, like you said, nonviolent communication, authentic relating, we were kind of trying to capture something more relational about it. And I mean, maybe to listeners who've never distinguished these two things, what are you talking about? Relating, communicating, I guess they're the same or what, what do you mean? What do we mean by the difference between those things? And it really is one simple way of looking at it. It's like the difference between the kind of verbal dimension and the embodied dimension. Um, but, you know, the relational, I think is just more encompassing of all of it. It's the words that we're saying, but it's also how we're feeling and it's also what our bodies are doing. And there's like a felt sense of our relationship. Like even when you're not here in front of me, either in person or on a screen, I can imagine you and then be like, oh, I have thoughts that percolate there or, uh, maybe, oh yeah, I totally forgot this dangling thread in our conversation that I wanted to come back to with her or something like that. Like the feeling of the relationship is, I think more of a holistic sense. And I think everybody has this. I think of it as like just a relational capacity. You could think about it as relational intelligence if you want to think about it in those terms. And it is the kind of communication that we do when we start to put words to these dynamics or ask these kind of questions like, hey, what was that like? Or you seem like this. Or hey, this is what it was like for me. Or this is what I want. These kinds of things are kind of using that verbal channel to essentially address this broader relational dimension. And I think a lot of communication frameworks just don't really talk about the relational dimension explicitly.

Kendra Cunov:
Right. Or yeah they don't necessarily talk about

Michael Porcelli: Yeah, I've done it a lot and I have opinions. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
it or it's sort of I mean again just to use non-violent communication as an example and people have sort of strong opinions about non-violent communication. Yeah I mean people totally love it, it's whereby

Michael Porcelli: They hate it. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
people say it's like the most violent communication there is, you know anyway. So I just want to say I'm neither here nor there in a certain sense.

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
And part of

Michael Porcelli: I got to see him live once, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
what's so present to me, so I actually was able to work with Marshall Rosenberg and I think maybe you were as well or to see him. Yeah I mean it's not like I worked with him personally but you know like in that space

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
of being and I mean I would weep. Like I would weep because that was so clearly actually what was there. It wasn't like oh I'm supposed to put on the giraffe

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
ears and listen to you. He just

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
legit did. He was like I'm gonna have whatever it takes inside my being, whatever it takes to work on that so that I can actually listen to you before thinking of what to say next, you know before making it about anything. I'm just gonna listen. And in some ways you know like different frameworks might talk about it differently. You know sometimes I'll have couples

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
that's like can you feel her heart while she's talking? Can you

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
yes hear the content. I'm not saying the content's not important at all but deeper than that can you actually just feel that something's tender in her heart and can you listen to the tenderness in her heart a little bit more than the words she's saying and what they mean to you in your mind. And he

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
was doing that right. And then it is

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
hard I mean I think we've actually run up against this challenge as like

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
creators of something or teachers of something where it's really tapped into something quite deep but then you like make it a thing and suddenly it can just be like a thing running

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
around out there that has certain language to it or format or

Michael Porcelli: Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
the way it's supposed to be done and it's like oh the most like yes

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
those words are important. Like I think about I statements.

Michael Porcelli: Right, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Like it actually is really helpful to make I statements

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
but it is most helpful when what it does is have you actually have to reflect on what can I say about myself and how that transforms my

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
internal experience to have to pause and go

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
oh I feel hurt. That's a game changer not just you know when you

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
I feel like

Michael Porcelli: Yes, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
so I don't know where I was going with that.

Michael Porcelli: Exactly.

Kendra Cunov:
Except that there you know it's like how do we convey this internal piece this embodied piece yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Totally. There's so much to explore in this kind of

Kendra Cunov:
[silence]

Michael Porcelli: territory of this connection between the verbal channel and the

Kendra Cunov:
Man.

Michael Porcelli: relational dimension. And as you were speaking, one of the things that kind of popped in my mind was this idea of congruence and the idea of receptivity. And I think of congruence is when it's

Kendra Cunov:
[muffled speaking]

Michael Porcelli: not just the words that we're saying, but it's the words, our thoughts, our non-verbals, our body, our voice tone,

Kendra Cunov:
[silence]

Michael Porcelli: they are all aligned, or they're almost mutually

Kendra Cunov:
[muffled speaking]

Michael Porcelli: reinforcing, right? And when somebody is really congruent,

Kendra Cunov:
[muffled speaking]

Michael Porcelli: it's very impactful. Like you might even say like, if an actor, like in a movie, is very congruent, it makes them

Kendra Cunov:
[muffled speaking]

Michael Porcelli: a really authentic actor. We know they're pretending,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: but they're doing it really well. And that capacity for congruence, I think,

Kendra Cunov:
[silence]

Michael Porcelli: is I suppose the channel or the principle, you might say, that

Kendra Cunov:
[muffled speaking]

Michael Porcelli: connects this embodied part with the verbal part. You know what I mean? [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
I do. I mean I kind of have these two things that spring from it and one part was just having me circle back around and go okay so how does this actually if we go what we're really interested in is people having the kind of relating they want with the people they want to have it. Like how does this actually impact and what you just said like one of the ways I think it does impact that is one of the places that people can get stuck is then I can only say what I feel. Like if I'm angry

Michael Porcelli: Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
nothing else can happen until like like it's just or I don't know there's like that sort of because it's congruent. And again there is this part you know I mean I it's true I mean we'll just say friendship I'll go you know it's easy to look at an intimate relationship.

Michael Porcelli: [silence] Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Even like with you as a friend that if you were her I was hurt.

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
There is there's congruence also in dropping down below the hurt not to pretend like the hurt isn't there.

Michael Porcelli: Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Right it's not hopping up above it to bypass but dropping down below and going okay and is the way I'm relating in congruence with the love that I feel.

Michael Porcelli: [silence] Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Or the ways that I'm that I'm actually genuinely devoted or committed to relating maybe in general but specifically to my friend Michael Porcelli: .

Michael Porcelli: [silence] Mm-hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Do I want like am I am I committed to being kind to him am I committed to being curious with him am I committed to caring about how he feels is what like am I commit you know.

Michael Porcelli: [silence] [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
So there are these and they might be a little bit underneath like I can't believe you fucking did that.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Right.

Kendra Cunov:
And I can't believe you fucking did that is also true right it's not to be lost but it's like how am I going to share.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
I can't you know and how we find congruence of like man I gotta say I'm having a really hard time being kind right now because I'm really mad.

Michael Porcelli: Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
Is actually kind congruent and authentic.

Michael Porcelli: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Right so like this is where it gets complex and layered and we go okay so all of this is actually important when we're talking about long term relationships both colleague relationships client relationships intimate relationships friendships our families.

Michael Porcelli: Yep. Mm-hmm. [silence] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Right. So yeah.

Michael Porcelli: That layered thing kind of reminds me of the thing you said earlier

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: about we're just expanding our capacity in a way, or like at what point or do we just get hooked

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: by a thought or a certain feeling of feeling like, oh, I have no other choice but to just, whatever, erupt or get hijacked somehow and in a way you could be like,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: I'm being really congruently angry, right? I'm raising my voice and I'm angry. Yes. But it's like selective. It's like there's just a part here that's talking and if I have the capacity for more, you could say it's the capacity to be with more intensity or just more feeling or just a broader aperture on my entire experience,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: more inclusive, then I can be like, at least the way it shows up for me when I'm doing it well, I feel like I like how I'm doing it, it's like, oh, there's that anger, here's this person, and I can be like,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: all right, I could go into that now or I could go into it at another time or I could say a little bit about something now. Hey, I recognize something is going on for me. And I would like to talk about it. I don't need to talk about it right now,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: but when you're available, I think it would be good for our relationship or something to talk about that. So I can, and then when we actually talk about it, then I can put it more in the center and be more congruent with the sadness or the hurt or the anger or all of the above. And oftentimes, if I'm really committed to openness, authenticity, vulnerability, these different layers or different parts kind of want to have

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: a little piece of the conversation, right? Like, oh, the angry part, this is the sad part and the hurting part. But I don't need to feel like an urgency to do it immediately just because it's there. There.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Hmm. Hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Uh huh. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
But there's often like a it's almost like a ping pong back and forth between well I know you didn't mean it but I feel it this way but you didn't mean it but I like you but it's this but it rather than being able to fully land in one or the other well knowing that the other is there. So sometimes you know and again it depends like for certain people but it's sort of like hey let's give a little more space to the anger part or the hurt part or you know to be fully expressed in this moment for a purpose.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And there and no ping ponging out about how you know they're a good person and I didn't mean it like because it because it's it's having this part kind of hold on because it's like but I didn't really get to express you know but then the same way where it's like well if I have to always come back to their positive intention or if I'm you know like we're on that.

Michael Porcelli: Exactly. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
But then we came into and then we sort of consistently like find ourselves irritated about little things because we've never really been like actually I'm kind of pissed about that. Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: I love that. Like that ping ponging. It's interesting because it's like we do have these multiple parts and if they're all is like, okay, I'm gonna now start revealing and it's like it's like it's almost these little parts are inside trying to like grab a hold of my tongue or my mouth and like blah,

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: but they're almost like interrupting each other. You know what I mean?

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: And like I know that I used to do that more often and one of the signs signals for me to pick

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: up on was like people being confused. Like,

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: hey, okay, I don't get what you're trying to say or I think I'm picking up on some things that you're trying to say, but you know, or they focus on one thing and I'll feel like, oh, but that's not quite it. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, so my message did not get whatever message I thought I was trying to do did not get through.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Well it reminds me of context like as a tool. And I love what you're saying is I mean because it is so valuable for people to actually notice the impact of it.

Michael Porcelli: Yes. Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
So oh what what was a signal for me was you know at least these two options sort of one is that they're confused and the other is that I actually don't feel gotten. Like they're really trying they're going like so what I heard you say is and I get to that and you're like but no this thing too you know and then they're like okay blah blah blah.

Michael Porcelli: Yes. Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
And then at some point they're like I don't know what's going on anymore. Right. So so there could be other signals of this but those are two big ones.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And and I also I really love that visual you're talking about like they're trying to grab your tongue.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
It is like little gremlins or something like I need airtime.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
And the way that this weaves with that that building of the capacity right like the wider aperture or the capacity to know that something's there but not addressed it and meet like everything is not urgent.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
And I think I mean certainly this happens just in people where you go like okay so go in with like a context.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Stick with that con say like this conversation is for you to feel heard. That's the context. Okay great. So that requires that I have some way of settling the part of me that needs to feel heard or my responses or the that didn't happen that way or the agreement disagreement like it requires that I have some way of settling that and that I'm resource enough to access it.

Michael Porcelli: Yes. Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
So that we can like fully handle. Oh do so do you feel heard. Great. Now let's just walk away from that for a minute. You know like let's just take an exhale let's have some water you know let's go for a walk.

Michael Porcelli: Sure. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Tomorrow tomorrow I need to feel heard.

Michael Porcelli: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
So things like that or or you know I have like in like something I need to talk with about you know like with I think about like with my partner right might have to do with parenting and there could be like a bunch of things in there.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
So now we're talking about this now we're talking about this we didn't come to any conclusion about this is that somehow related to this I can't really tell. Wait did we talk about anything at all. Like, and do we feel more connected, you know, are we like what would just happen.

Michael Porcelli: What just happened? Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Without that kind of, I think about it as like a certain kind of self discipline or just an intention intentionality awareness. It does,

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: you know, because when you do have a relational conversation communication, it often is arising from some felt sense of tension, right? Like, and oftentimes you experience tensions in a negative way. Sometimes it feels like aspiration or like a positive potential, you know, but a lot of times it feels like, oh, okay, we got to have a talk about this. And it's like, oh, gosh, you know, and there's like this thing and then it's going to be tense and that discomfort

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: or you might say that kind of lack of capacity to really be with it all does even, even if the conversation starts to feel urgent, right? And the parts are competing in me, the parts are competing in you, you know, you might seem to be confused about what I'm saying, but I also feel confused about what you're saying. You know, and then people start repeating themselves and it's like, okay, why is that person saying that again? You know, like, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kendra Cunov:
Do they think I didn't get that. Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Right. So it's like, oh, can we slow it down? And then this, this principle actually got from

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: holacracy rather than from authentic relating. I've actually incorporated it into what I'm calling meta relating now, which is sort of like my own kind of evolution of some of these processes. And the principle is one tension at a time. Process one tension at a time.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: And in holacracy, it's in the organizational context, but in the relational context,

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: I think about it as like, oh, cool, like I can, okay, this is my turn to be heard and understood until I feel like that's done.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Right. And there's actually the sense of like that tension or maybe that part of a larger tension getting satisfied. It's like, I feel the thing, I really need to be understood and heard right now. Please, will you do that for me? And you're like, okay. And then I know you and I have had some moments where it's like, just this one thing, Kendra, like, just

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah, yes, yes.

Michael Porcelli: listen to me and understand me. That's all I need right now. Right. And then I know because like, you know, we have enough trust. I'm like, I know my intensity will kind of like, so I was like, okay, cool. And sometimes that's it. It's just the one thing. But oftentimes it's like, okay, now

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: oh, here's the next thing, whatever the next thing is. I actually really now feel totally curious about you. What was that like for you? Oh, now I want that to be resolved. Okay, now I heard ah, I feel the end. It's like these these tensions

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: are I can't I don't know if it's like a ball of a knot, you know, like when you're untangling a string and there's a little part. Okay, we're just going to focus on this tiny little part over here. Oh, that one's done. Very nice. Okay. Now, okay. This other not part of the knot, you know, the tangle needs to get sort of untangled. I don't know what the right metaphor is here, but it does sort of feel like if I'm just trying to like untangle the whole

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: thing at the same time, I'm just going to make more knots or like tighten them up. You know what I mean? Like I'm just pulling it from all the but if I can like zoom in on a thing just untangle the one piece okay, now we're just kind of resolving it one little knot at a time.

Kendra Cunov:
I mean I think it's a brilliant even just a phrase right one tension at a time, because it really it's like, oh, I know what that means.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Yes. You.

Kendra Cunov:
And it is often that kind of a thing that is like, you know, you'll bring attention to me or, you know, it's like or it happens in relationships right in intimate relationships someone sort of brings a thing and then the other person is like, yeah, well you know you never did it.

Michael Porcelli: All right, that's another thing.

Kendra Cunov:
And it's like, new tension. And also when it was like, it's like somehow I was going to ignore my tension until you brought attention and then my then my attention went like zip.

Michael Porcelli: Yep. Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah, so it's just. For some reason is, I mean I like the analogy you were using like the, the tangled ball of yarn. And I don't think this would ever really happen, but the image I almost got was of like a whole series of slack lines.

Michael Porcelli: Hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And, and I mean I don't know if this is true about slack lines or not but I was just thinking about like things that are kept in tension at some point they probably need to be released sometimes or they like lose their, you know, it's like a rubber band right loses its thing.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
And so your relationships are like this like the truth is that we there might even be a certain amount of tension we want most of the time right so we're sort of checking.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Like to is this is this actually the is it is everything like slack.

Michael Porcelli: Right.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah. You know, and so some and then we'll kind of like bring attention to just attention it up rather than like, oh, how can we can we can we can we have some, you know dissonance or polarity on purpose.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
But then also that sense of what is actually the right what like what feels like good tension. Or like so that I mean I think about I don't know if this will translate to audio but you know how we how we would lead that exercise in various authentic relating spaces of the stick.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Stick dance. Stick dance. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
The stick dance. Yeah. So that there's two people and each person has one finger on the end one end of the stick one end of the stick right.

Michael Porcelli: Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
And you have to have enough pressure so the stick doesn't fall. But if you're like pushing too hard like nothing can really happen or you're just kind of pushing at each other. And I think relationship really does feel like that. And so you know for just like running around checking this lack of all these different tensions.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Then none of them are really attended to or were kind of exhausted. It's like that's all the relationship is it's just like check and slack check and slack check and slack. You know. And we're like why am I here? Or do they get real loose? Or are they too tight? Or like so what do you know how do we kind of be in this this dynamic space of and I just like one tension at a time around that.

Michael Porcelli: Flabby. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Like hey you know I mean that's kind of just useful to bring into the space and then be like OK great. Maybe now we can pay attention to the ground that just feels good.

Michael Porcelli: Yep.

Kendra Cunov:
And then bring another tension. I think I think high level like you're talking about you and I is sometimes we can do another tension right after. But a lot of times a lot of times you really can't. You know it's like we have to actually pay attention more to like the trees that the slack lines are attached to or the ground you know and just just enjoy like the solidity for a minute.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Yeah, take a breather. Feel connected. Go more towards the similarity or the parts that are good.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: You know, in anything in practical terms, it does sometimes unfold in this way. You know, you could imagine

Kendra Cunov:
Uh huh.

Michael Porcelli: if, you know, one tension at a time is a thing, but then also

Kendra Cunov:
Uh huh.

Michael Porcelli: the difference between sort of like

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: yeah, the difference in similarity. It's like, hey, we'd okay, we're cranking through, you know, okay, that felt a little bit uncomfortable. We reached a good resolution. Okay. But then we went into another one, into another one. And sometimes our bodies or our beings, it's like, okay, like if tension of a certain kind like stacks too high or difference, you know, like that rubber band starts stretching and then you know, some part of our maybe

Kendra Cunov:
Uh huh.

Michael Porcelli: more primordial brain is like, are we okay? Like, this is feeling kind of intense or like, should I start being afraid of this person or like

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: just tell me something you like about me. Come on. Like, I mean, are we still friends or what? You know, like.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
You know maybe I'm upset with you but can I long term can I just also remember to tell you things I like about you on a regular basis. And can that be true even when I'm upset about you or upset with you. You know like I'm irritated about this. Something I really like about you is you know I consistently find that I appreciate this. And again it's kind of that like it's almost down deeper it's like it's underneath some of the tensions but it's also true. And I think that gets lost sometimes in the authentic part.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Is like whatever is on top seems like well that must be what's authentic right. I'm disappointed in you I'm angry I'm upset with you I want something from you you're not doing the thing I want you to do. But underneath that actually there's appreciation there's love there's you know long term gratitude. And those are also true.

Michael Porcelli: Yep. Yep. Yep, totally. And there's a little potential misfire to just like go over the top with nice. You know what I'm saying?

Kendra Cunov:
Totally.

Michael Porcelli: He's like, I'm following their advice. You know, it's like that management thing. It's like, you know, if you're going to like give somebody critical feedback, say something nice before and something nice after and now people call that the shit sandwich. And they're like, oh, okay, you're saying something nice. Get to the crappy part, please. Right. Like, and you're like, I don't believe any

Kendra Cunov:
Am I all right. Yeah yeah yeah.

Michael Porcelli: right. It's like, okay. But it's tricky. Right. But part of that is somewhat of a congruence or like tapping into

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: a deeper layer where it's like I am doing the acknowledgement or the appreciation or at least my intention is to do it from a place that's really genuine. And, you know,

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: I suppose if I'm like, you know, talking about some intense way I'm upset at you and I'm like, and I like your hair, you know, I mean, that's a little like, eh,

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: okay, come on, dig a little deeper Porch. You know what I mean? Like, but I can, I can definitely be like, yeah, that was really hard for me to say. And just the way that you repeated it back really felt good. And like you really were

Kendra Cunov:
It was.

Michael Porcelli: listening. And I want to thank you for that and let you know I I recognize that it had a positive impact the way that you just listened to me. Then it's really

Kendra Cunov:
It was.

Michael Porcelli: arising from the actual moment that we're in. Right. It is it is sort of bringing in another part like, oh, this part that is sharing with you about something that was upsetting

Kendra Cunov:
This.

Michael Porcelli: you know, about you. Right. Like can

Kendra Cunov:
I guess.

Michael Porcelli: pause for just a second to like, oh, but yeah, I'm like ground of health kind of thing almost like I'm reconnecting to this underlying structure that is the thing that we have built together over all these years and letting you know

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: I feel that I feel the support of it under my feet. Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah. Which again is kind of the embodied piece right like I'm actually feeling that even in the midst of this. And that's I think I think that example is so beautiful in terms of like actually could actually be in a heated moment.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And still feel the ground of relationship underneath.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
Or I just think about these like long term relationships you know like you and your brother or something, and you might not be in a heated moment but you also might not be like loving him completely.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Sure.

Kendra Cunov:
And it can be like a consistent like oh but I have a practice of actually touching into what I appreciate about my brother, because it matters to me over time.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
You know what I think about that like if you're talking about in a work situation to like a boss, you know, rather than now I'm doing this shit sandwich thing I think that's hilarious.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
I mean it's funny because I actually just said this to my partner yesterday about how he relates to our daughter, because he just is like very. He doesn't mean to be critical he like so wants the best for her that it's always about what she can do better.

Michael Porcelli: Hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And I just saw her really kind of go down the other night and I saw it impact him and so I was having this conversation I was like what if like, not that he's not going to hold behavior standards, you know like, no you may not speak to me like that or I have boundaries and limits.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
So it's not about, you know, just like, making everything really nice.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
But I just said like what if you took on you know for a couple weeks, every time she did something, you saw how she could do it better different or she had better form with her diving or her cycling or her, you know, creation or, but that just for a couple weeks, all you did was say what you saw that was great about it. And I think it actually is helpful for both, you know, I mean it could be more people but like we'll just say both people in a dynamic like that actually serves him because it trains his attention differently.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And it serves her because she's receiving this positive about what's actually and it's not make shit up. But like wow that was brave or you know I saw you almost fall and you caught yourself and putting attention on that rather than like maybe don't do that thing so you don't almost fall, put the attention on like I saw you caught yourself and just keep training.

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
And that there again it's kind of like what's between them something slightly different gets woven then that this is always a space of criticism where his intention is for her life to be better but her, you know, the impact is that she's like, "dada hates me."

Michael Porcelli: Totally.

Kendra Cunov:
She doesn't really think that but like.

Michael Porcelli: I mean, this is what I love about this is it actually actually sort of touches a little bit on even like the sociological things that sort of change over time like education styles or parenting styles and you know, this kind of like you don't want them to get

Kendra Cunov:
Is.

Michael Porcelli: lazy so you gotta like be really stingy with the appreciation or like maybe you never do it, you know, or you always give a criticism with your appreciation

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: so they're always wanting to do more and then you know, there's a whole generation of people that are like, I feel anxious or like my parents don't really love me or they're impossibly pleased or and then you kind of have this like, we're the hippie parents and we just love

Kendra Cunov:
Never say no.

Michael Porcelli: them no matter what, we're just always telling what's great about them, never say no, right, like we're gonna be best friends and it's like there's something about that that I think can also kind of be damaging and this is kind of in a polarity sort of way something to honor both of, right, like this is

Kendra Cunov:
It's right.

Michael Porcelli: yeah, like you know, if I think about it, if I think about it, yeah, like you know, if I think about an intimate relationship or just a really effective colleagueship with somebody, it's like, hey, you know, sometimes I kind of want to hear what you think I could be doing better, you know what I mean, like

Kendra Cunov:
This is.

Michael Porcelli: we've built enough trust that like you don't have to just be nice all the time, you know, and I can take it and I know I'll be better and I trust you enough in a way, like I, this is kind of one of these relational principles of like we have blind spots, there's sort of like the totality of how we express ourselves in the world and then there's this kind of version of ourselves in our own mind, like this is what we think we are and this is how we think we're impacting

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: the world and it's like, it's accurate to a degree and it's just inaccurate, there's just like ways that you're off or it's in a blind spot, and like I need trusted friends to help me, it's like having a booger hanging out your nose, like please tell me, you know, don't just let me walk around with the booger hanging out of my nose, right, it's like [laughter]

Kendra Cunov:
Well, and it was funny because you and I were joking at the very beginning and they probably listen to someone hear this but about the bossy lady on Zoom who comes on and tells us that it's recording.

Michael Porcelli: Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
And we were joking about informed consent. And in my own mind, of course, I'm kind of like, I don't know is that maybe we always want that or do we sometimes we want to play without consent but the truth is that I think when we play without consent it's always in some wider context of that we've chosen which means that it is consent like.

Michael Porcelli: [silence] Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
It can get a little, you know, weird when we do this but but that that's that's what strikes me as that same thing is, and this goes back to kind of our intention is how do we have the kind of relating, we want with the people we want to have it with, and it partly it does require

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
these pieces of context, like, hey, for today, we're going to play without consent, you know, like, just you and just me and just for today, which means that it's in the realm of informed consent but but in that place, this is how we want to play.

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
Or when you come to this event for two hours, you know, you're gonna say everything you think you felt like or feel right we're gonna do radical honesty and it's gonna look like this and you're just you know, and you're not gonna do anything you know like you want to you don't want to be part of a conversation you just walk away you know like it's just it's like that's that that's the wrong or you're gonna come to this event, and you're gonna ask before every single thing right like we're all agreeing that when we come we're not I'm not even going to talk to you without saying like can I talk to you you know I'm like is it okay if I come closer to you.

Michael Porcelli: [laughter] [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
Is it okay if I come closer or we're just like in we get to create these different realms. And I think, you know, I mean it's what people like about coming to events, like quote unquote authentic relating events were, you know, like all these different kinds or polarity events or you know just different kinds of relational events is like in a way people relax a little because they're like, oh, that's what we're doing here.

Michael Porcelli: Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
And then we also get to play a little more full out because there's agreement.

Michael Porcelli: [silence]

Kendra Cunov:
And I think, like you said at the beginning is in some way, all of us at some point forget that we actually can do this in all our relationships.

Michael Porcelli: Right, right, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
And sometimes it can be kind of radical like the examples I gave or it could just be like, hey, want to try like, you know, talking to each other like this or want to, you know, like, like there's something I'd like in our in our relating like how can we bring that in and we actually get to say, we do actually get to say how we want things to go.

Michael Porcelli: [silence] Totally. Yeah, totally.

Kendra Cunov:
It's like a radical idea.

Michael Porcelli: So, like, I'm gonna, I wanna come back to this point, like, maybe indirectly,

Kendra Cunov:
[ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: 'cause, like, there's another thing I wanna make sure we include in our conversation here, which is, um, almost, like, kinda the spiritual version of, like, especially, especially people who love

Kendra Cunov:
[ Inaudible ]

Michael Porcelli: circling, kinda go into this thing, and it's, it's like this, "Wow, there's radical ground of being," or "We're all one," or "No bound, there are no boundaries," like, if you really examine it, the boundaries

Kendra Cunov:
[ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: dissolve, and, like, they're just constructs, right, and all of this, which, I suppose is kind of true, I mean, in a way, like, I suppose it depends on your metaphysics, I didn't really consent to exist, I just fuckin' am here, you know what I'm saying, like, I didn't consent to my genome,

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: it's just my genome, or whatever, right, like, I, you know,

Kendra Cunov:
[ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: somebody speaking English speaks words, and, like, my brain makes thoughts out of those words, I can't not consent to that, it's just like, you know, so there are these blurry boundaries where it's like, "Oh," and, like, if you, if you sort of flip into a certain orientation towards, like, the dissolution of boundaries, or the oneness, or the ground of being, or the interbeing, or whatever you wanna call it,

Kendra Cunov:
[ Inaudible ]

Michael Porcelli: that can be a, you know, a beautiful, wonderful thing that happens at spiritual retreats, or when you meditate a lot, or when you do a lot of circling, wow, it can be profound, even, and, like, however, what I find happens is people kinda go like, "That was cool, let's just

Kendra Cunov:
Yes. [ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: always be doing that somehow," or at least always be trying to, like, steer every conversation, or interaction, or even make

Kendra Cunov:
[ Inaudible ]

Michael Porcelli: our relationship, the Kendra Porcelli relationship, about that thing, so we're just, you and me are always trying to deconstruct our boundaries so we can feel the oneness, right, it's like every,

Kendra Cunov:
[ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: it's like, it becomes almost like an implicit bias to all of our interactions, and it's like, that, I don't know if that's actually healthy, I mean, maybe there are some spiritual teacher student relationships where it's like, that's what we're doing, and so long as you're

Kendra Cunov:
Yes. [ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: gonna be, like, this close to me as a, whatever, a spiritual practitioner, and I'm the spiritual teacher, for example, like, then great, we're gonna, you're gonna come at me with something, and I'm gonna dismantle your boundaries, and like, that's kind of just, and I'm doing it for your good, and it's not gonna feel good sometimes, but you're gonna thank me for it in the end, or whatever this kind of guru thing they do, and I'm like, okay, some people want that, and if it's broadly consensual, that's fine, but like, the

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: the idea that somehow our relationship, if it's gonna be

Kendra Cunov:
[ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: an authentic relationship, or a true or genuine relationship, it has to have this feature of boundarylessness, or dismantling of boundaries, or dismantling of constructs, or, and it's like, you know, like, no, I actually think it's a healthier

Kendra Cunov:
Yes. [ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: relationship in the, what do you want to call it, this relative plane of existence where we gotta eat and sleep and, you know, take care of our bodies, and

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: you know, earn money, or whatever, it's like, hey,

Kendra Cunov:
[ Inaudible ]

Michael Porcelli: having these contexts where you're like, over here we don't do that, over here we do do that, or like, hey, in our intimate relationship, if you're having feelings, and you don't like it, that's great, I wanna hear all about that, but please don't just like, throw out willy-nilly, like something like, and maybe this is why we should break up, like, right, like,

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Michael Porcelli: cause that undermines my ability to kind of work through this with you, if it sort of feels like at any given moment your feeling might be also a threat to our relationship, that's not what I would call like, secure attachment promoting, like, communication, right, there's a way that secure attachment, if you kind of believe in that construct for an intimate relationship, requires like, affirming the relationship itself in order to explore

Kendra Cunov:
[ Inaudible ]

Michael Porcelli: differences, even if you maybe are like, I don't really feel like affirming our relationship right now, like, it might be healthy to do so, so these, these boundaries or these rules, these constraints you might say, are sometimes necessary, but not just necessary, they're like, if we wanna build something interesting or beautiful in this way, they're useful, yeah!

Kendra Cunov:
They're useful. [ Pause ]

Michael Porcelli: they're useful. Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's kind of like there's, there's two ways I could go about that and one is I think you and I just basically agree here, so I can, I could agree with you in a lot of places, like I have a real firm belief in boundaries. I mean, I think if we're going to talk about authenticity in some broad sense, authenticity is what is so

Michael Porcelli: Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
and in my framework, boundaries are there actually already So

Michael Porcelli:
Mm.

Kendra Cunov:
and then what we choose to do with them that that's the place we sort of choose. But it's sort of like they're like, I have a response when someone comes, you know, and it depends on who the person is, right? So my where like my personal boundary, personal space boundary is, is different depending on who the person is. But at some point I have some response. Brioche, like every, you know, other body

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah,

Kendra Cunov:
comes somewhere and I'm just like, oh, and maybe it's like an oh, like that feels good. And maybe it's like, oh, you know,

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah,

Kendra Cunov:
but even the oh, it feels good ultimately is touching, you know, like I'm me and you're you what I would like us to touch there

Michael Porcelli:
yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
or it's like, oh no I me and you're you and I would like you to be over there. But

Michael Porcelli:
Mm

Kendra Cunov:
both actually require a feeling a boundary either for the zing of let's get closer

Michael Porcelli:
hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
or the like. We have like, let's get. Further.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
Or everything in between. And, and then if I just go kind of like meta

Michael Porcelli:
Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
is to, you know, is to say again, like I think a place you and I have a lot of alignment is that ultimately we're not here to say like what is an authentic relationship or what a healthy relationship or what is. And we're here to go like what you know, what kind of relating do you and the people you want to be relating with want to have?

Michael Porcelli:
Yep,

Kendra Cunov:
And so there is the potential that there are two people or two or more people who like the way they want to relate, has something to do with lack of boundaries. Like, okay, great, go do that. But that's not like people who are here to say that's though those are the best relationships. Those are the healthiest, those are the truest, those are the most authentic. We're here to say, actually, that's just a way of relating.

Michael Porcelli:
yep.

Kendra Cunov:
And if you'll like it, good for you. And if you don't like it, there's nothing wrong where you go.

Michael Porcelli:
Right. Yeah, totally.

Kendra Cunov:
And, you know, fine, fine. I mean, there's a little bit, I think, you know, where especially with the authentic relating comprehensive there was this that dynamic tension between like yeah find your people right Find the people who like to do the thing you like to do and also and how do we create our people around us rather than thinking I have to go somewhere else to find the people who like to do what I like to do.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah,

Kendra Cunov:
That comes by reviewing, you know, and this goes back to the very first thing I said, which is like first actually have to know how I want to relate so that I can reveal and bring it

Michael Porcelli:
right.

Kendra Cunov:
so that somebody else can go like, No shit.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
I didn't know. I like to do that.

Michael Porcelli:
Ooh!

Kendra Cunov:
So

Michael Porcelli:
exciting.

Kendra Cunov:
or I never thought of that, but I'm sort of interested now.

Michael Porcelli:
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is you're touching on a little bit of, you know, some of what you've been saying this last few minutes is part of my rationale for branding my new thing meta relating rather than

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli:
authentic relating, because the meta

Kendra Cunov:
Yes,

Michael Porcelli:
is really just like, create the one you want to have. And like, I'll help

Kendra Cunov:
yes.

Michael Porcelli:
you get the skills, the communication skills to do that, to address these dynamics. And

Kendra Cunov:
With

Michael Porcelli:
there

Kendra Cunov:
a

Michael Porcelli:
is some there is a little bit of a bias. You know, I don't want to just say like, Oh, it's just like values neutral or it's just, you know, this like this, a human universal or something like this. But I am saying like to some degree

Kendra Cunov:
Amherst.

Michael Porcelli:
you do sort of have to know what you want in order to express what you want. And then some people are more or less in touch with that, right.

Kendra Cunov:
Yes,

Michael Porcelli:
Or it's better to be kangaroo meant because if you're more congruent, you're more likely to have the impact you want to have. But some people have a hard time being congruent.

Kendra Cunov:
yes.

Michael Porcelli:
So like this, this idea that there is something like more more honesty, skill, fullness or

Kendra Cunov:
With,

Michael Porcelli:
something like

Kendra Cunov:
with,

Michael Porcelli:
that is better. Not because

Kendra Cunov:
with

Michael Porcelli:
we're

Kendra Cunov:
the

Michael Porcelli:
saying like, have a radical honesty relationship with everybody you meet. It is because you kind of

Kendra Cunov:
the

Michael Porcelli:
need to be able to do that in order to create the relationship you want to have.

Kendra Cunov:
Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
Yes. Yeah. So different than like big cookie cutter like or just like you know stamps on really like this kind word this way this but more like there are some skills and capacities that can be deployed in a myriad of ways.

Michael Porcelli:
Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
I mean, literally it requires I listen to a podcast that was is about but it was basically the difference between like liars and bullshit ers or something. You know, it was basically like in order to be a liar, you actually have to know what the truth is

Michael Porcelli:
Uh huh.

Kendra Cunov:
and intentionally

obscure it

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
or divert from it. But like Bullshitter is actually don't care what the truth is. They're just kind of bullshitting.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah,

Kendra Cunov:
And so I hear this thing. It's like even to have like it like you want to have. This is where we're getting like in our last few minutes. We're just kind of crazy dance. Like maybe you want to have a relationship where you just lie all the time or like, you withhold like, maybe, like, withholding or in a way, you even have to you have to have that honesty to be able to do it rather than just like it's somehow randomly. It's just happening. And I like I don't actually have any choice about when I'm lying or when I'm not, or I don't even know if I'm lying because I don't even know what the truth is. You know, it's like

Michael Porcelli:
right.

Kendra Cunov:
in order to to tell a good who, I actually have to know what the truth is.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah, yeah. So it's you can even play weird. I mean, this is sort of what I like about these very intentionally constructed communities that do almost extreme.

Kendra Cunov:
you know

Michael Porcelli:
It's almost like extreme relating games, like the BDSM people

Kendra Cunov:
Yes this.

Michael Porcelli:
sort of like, Hey, we have a lot of rules. But the reason why we have

Kendra Cunov:
Yes,

Michael Porcelli:
a lot of rules is because we get to do fucking crazy shit, you know what I'm saying? Like,

Kendra Cunov:
yes,

Michael Porcelli:
Oh,

Kendra Cunov:
yes. Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
we could do that. Oh, my God.

Kendra Cunov:
yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
Okay.

Kendra Cunov:
yeah.

Michael Porcelli:
Like. You know, even though as opposed to more casual. Have you heard of this? Um, there's this board game called Secret Hitler where the whole

Kendra Cunov:
No.

Michael Porcelli:
game is about lying, So you just, you just play, like, okay, for

Kendra Cunov:
Oh.

Michael Porcelli:
this period

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah.

Michael Porcelli:
of time, we're going to do this game. In

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
order to win, we have to, like, trick each other more successfully, and it's like, that's super exciting and fun for a while. But like, you know, after

Kendra Cunov:
yeah.

Michael Porcelli:
I play a lot of rounds of secret Hitler, I'm like, This is not good. Like,

Kendra Cunov:
Like

Michael Porcelli:
I want

Kendra Cunov:
you

Michael Porcelli:
to.

Kendra Cunov:
all have

Michael Porcelli:
I

Kendra Cunov:
to

Michael Porcelli:
want

Kendra Cunov:
leave my house.

Michael Porcelli:
I'm like,

Kendra Cunov:
Like,

Michael Porcelli:
We're

Kendra Cunov:
you can't

Michael Porcelli:
done.

Kendra Cunov:
even stay in my house because, like, I don't trust any of you anymore.

Michael Porcelli:
But it is fun to sort of like dabble in there, you know, just like

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
it might be fun to do some, you know, crazy power differential game for the sex,

Kendra Cunov:
we should.

Michael Porcelli:
for the sex, for the thrill, the sex or whatever the fun of it all

Kendra Cunov:
For

Michael Porcelli:
in.

Kendra Cunov:
the sex of the thrill.

Michael Porcelli:
But yeah, like this is why context

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
you know I put way more in the foreground you know rather than just kind of like always more authentic or always more empathic or always more

Kendra Cunov:
but

Michael Porcelli:
connected

Kendra Cunov:
you

Michael Porcelli:
sort of biases that I kind of got

Kendra Cunov:
with

Michael Porcelli:
really

Kendra Cunov:
the.

Michael Porcelli:
kind of accustomed to in the authentic relating community or movement. Whatever you want to talk about is like, actually let's foreground things like context and relational agreements and like

Kendra Cunov:
But

Michael Porcelli:
intentionality

Kendra Cunov:
but really?

Michael Porcelli:
where we can okay, like these it's more practical because, you know, I talked to a friend of mine, I mentioned her to use last time we talk.

Kendra Cunov:
yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
She's like, Oh

Kendra Cunov:
yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
yeah, I used to be an authentic relating. I don't do that anymore.

Kendra Cunov:
yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
And I'm just like,

Kendra Cunov:
yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
I guess that means something like, like that. You don't prefer

Kendra Cunov:
yeah.

Michael Porcelli:
to do authentic relating, but like, that didn't compute in my mind because the way that I have always related with it is it should be usable for you to create the relationships you want to be having.

Kendra Cunov:
Right. But as I grow and evolve and my definition of authentic, like what is true for me

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
and what my desires are and the kind of relationships I want to have, as that evolves, so does authentic relating

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
in its, in its meta sense, right.

Michael Porcelli:
Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
Therefore matter relating,

Michael Porcelli:
Yes.

Kendra Cunov:
you know, do

Michael Porcelli:
Yes thing we did it. Branding complete.

Kendra Cunov:
we tied in a nice little bow?

Michael Porcelli:
Well that is that's super fun. Is there anything you want to

Kendra Cunov:
No,

Michael Porcelli:
wrap up with? Any closing thoughts or something? You want to make sure that you get to say before we go?

Kendra Cunov:
I don't think so. I mean, it was really fine to just see the way that things could, they could spiral. And then also of come full circle and,

Michael Porcelli:
Mm hmm.

Kendra Cunov:
and it was really fun.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah, me too.

Kendra Cunov:
I really enjoyed this. I really like laughing with you, too.

Michael Porcelli:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a you know, maybe it's sort of like a little bit above average, but like, when you and I kind of really get into it, this sort of felt like that vibe that we get

Michael Porcelli:
into. So, yeah.

Kendra Cunov:
women.

Michael Porcelli:
And for people who kind of are just listening to us for the first time

Kendra Cunov:
If

Michael Porcelli:
for like.

Kendra Cunov:
you ever wanted to know what it's like to be a fly on the wall when

Kendra Cunov:
Michael

Michael Porcelli:
and Porch

Kendra Cunov:
talk. Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
this is this is yeah, par for the course in many ways when we're getting nerdy

Kendra Cunov:
maybe

Michael Porcelli:
anyway.

Kendra Cunov:
a. Little bit less like swearing or something, but.

Michael Porcelli:
Sure, sure, absolutely. When the kids are around or whatever. Anyway,

Kendra Cunov:
Yeah,

Michael Porcelli:
this has been beautiful.

Kendra Cunov:
well.

Michael Porcelli:
I've had a great time. Kendra and I look forward to doing again with you some time. Thank you for doing this with me. I really appreciate

Kendra Cunov:
That's

Michael Porcelli:
it.

Kendra Cunov:
a pleasure.

Michael Porcelli:
Relational Conversations is the official podcast of meta relating an innovative approach to communicating effectively about your relationships, whether personal or professional. If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out our resources training courses and events at MetaRelating. com.

This podcast was produced and edited by me, Michael Porcelli, founder of MetaRelating. Thank you for listening and stay connected for more.

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